Talk:Deflect arrows
Free hands Question: "Use of this feat requires at least one hand free. Using a two-handed weapon, such as a bow, will obviously prevent this." What about a shield in the off-hand? Thanks, Zenobia 22:46, 30 June 2006 (PDT) * As long as one hand is free, it'll work. A shield in the off-hand and nothing in the main hand will work; but, if the character is also holding a weapon in the main hand, it won't. -- Alec Usticke 06:20, 1 July 2006 (PDT) Question: My character doesn't seem to be getting to make a reflex save while a sling is equipped, any insignt? Kkff 22:43, 25 July 2008 (UTC) * Just tested this and you're correct... Deflect Arrows isn't working with a sling, even with the offhand free. Genesisth 07:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC) Missiles I am assuming the term "missile" that is used in the description refers to physical rather than magical spell missiles. But there is a question whether there is a difference between mundane physical missiles vs. those with enchantments (eg. fire arrow, lightning bolt, ice dart, fire axe) being stopped with this feat. Incidentally, the link (for "missile") that is currently formatted on the description page refers to a non-existent page, which, if it contained information, would probably answer my question. Has this feat been tested for the full range of "missiles"? --Iconclast 13:37, October 29, 2009 (UTC) * Yes, just physical missiles. No, no difference between mundane and enchanted physical missiles as far as this feat is concerned. --The Krit 15:44, November 25, 2009 (UTC) * I had a thought, and realized that instead of linking to "missile", the article could probably link to "ammunition" or "ranged weapon". I just ran a test and the feat works against darts, so the latter is presumably accurate. --The Krit 20:08, April 7, 2011 (UTC) Deflecting misses? If the first missile attack in a round misses, is this feat wasted for the round, or does deflect missile attempt to deflect the first missile that scores a hit each round? 12:51, September 3, 2010 (UTC)the_critical_process * I would guess that the feat applies to the first hit rather than the first attack, but I have not looked into it myself. --The Krit 21:37, September 3, 2010 (UTC) * I had another thought: if someone is going to test this out, it might be interesting to also see if epic dodge renders this feat ineffective. (That is, if a character/creature has both epic dodge and deflect arrows, and if it is attacked with a ranged weapon, do both feats get applied to the first hit -- assuming the first attack hits, if my above guess is wrong? Or would this creature get to avoid two hits per round?) --The Krit 22:39, September 3, 2010 (UTC) * I'm also curious about that... Any advice on how to test Epic Dodge vs Deflect Arrows vs AC? I'm thinking just a buttload of arrows on one char with both feats, some hitting and some missing.... Never attempted to test anything before, is there a setting to generate a combat log .txt dump? 00:37, June 10, 2012 (UTC) :* In the nwnplayer.ini, under options, set ClientEntireChatWindowLogging=1. This will record the current session in the /logs file nwclientLog1.txt. You'll need to rename this file to distinguish multiples sessions as it will always overwrite the previous one. --Iconclast 02:31, June 10, 2012 (UTC) :* Above I assumed (possibly, in error) you knew to use "dm_enablecombatdebugging 1" to glean all the combat calculation data. --Iconclast 02:38, June 10, 2012 (UTC) :* Ok I've finally (after an massive month delay) created a log, not sure if I should post it somewhere (or how to do so beside copy-paste). I created a simple mod where I was surrounded by 6 unarmed bugbears and 4 lizardmen archers and let the archers run out of arrows on me, not sure but my knee-jerk from reading the log is thinking it's using both epic dodge and deflect arrows on the same attacks, but I could be wrong. Oh and to confuse things my char had Self Concealment 5 lol. The critters all have names I coded for a piercing-slashing damage test I'm about to run too, wanted to see for myself what happens with AC bonuses vs damage types etc. Anyone want me to post or upload the logs somewhere? 01:09, August 11, 2012 (UTC) * Deflect arrows can trigger even if the d20 attack roll is a one (automatic miss). So you can deflect misses, wasting the feat for that round. 14:44, February 15, 2013 (UTC) Twohanded weapons occasionally allow deflecting? I have occasionally witnessed a successful deflect arrow made by my character while wielding a greatsword or halberd, but this doesn't happen to my characters consistently all the time. Circumstances are while wearing cloth armour and being hasted, I'm not sure what other things influence this. I'm thinking that perhaps the number of attacks per round has an effect on wether this is possible, or the distance to the archer, but in a few little tests I didn't manage to reproduce this happening. If anyone has more experience with this, it'd be appreciated to hear about it. 07:10, October 13, 2010 (UTC)Zap *I've noticed this too. It could use more testing, but it seems like the deflection only occurs when not in combat. I don't know if this is the intended reasoning behind it, but when moving or standing still you are holding your weapon in one hand instead of two. Doc Rufio 06:10, April 10, 2012 (UTC) Confusing note "This feat doesn't work until character initiate attack roll for the first time for the given session. (This session is erased when character is out of combat.)" Not sure what this note is trying to say. What exactly is a "session"... an encounter? a round? the first combat action after server logon? How does this relate to being attacked by multiple range attacks in the same round? At least for me, it can be interpreted several different ways. Clarification, please. --Iconclast (talk) 05:16, February 14, 2013 (UTC) * Going by common terminology, a "session" starts when you go from the game's menus into the game proper, and ends when you quit NWN. However, that is not something that can be erased, nor are you kicked out of NWN when your character is out of combat. So, the note is clearly poorly worded at best (not surprising). It kind of looks like a reiteration of "if not caught flat-footed" to me. --The Krit (talk) 17:07, February 14, 2013 (UTC) * I have also had some trouble interpreting that note. I thought it might mean current combat session or some period that starts when the deflecting PC makes an initiative roll. If so, the wording needs work. But, it does seem that there may be something more than the just the flat-foot condition in play. I ran a little test where a toon with several monk levels and no equipped weapons clicked on destitnations so that he ran back and forth in bow range of an orc archer (nw_orcb) whose BAB and DEX I'd increased so that he hit frequently. The PC's action queue was never empty because he is moving, so I think ''he was not flat footed (not certain that's how flat foot works). Yet, he didn't attempt to deflect an arrow. I should note that it seemed to have nothing to do with the game session, since the PC had killed other opponents before the orc archer was spawned. But, after attacking the orc, then running off, the PC deflected subsequent arrows pretty regularly. Anyway, the note in question isn't clear to me, but ''may ''be more to describe about the feat mechanics, too. - MrZork (talk) 21:19, February 14, 2013 (UTC) :* One way to test for flat-footedness: make sure your PC has some dodge or tumble AC and enable combat debugging. If the debugging shows the dodge/tumble AC being applied, then you're not flat-footed. (OK, or dex-AC, but then you have to mention the feats that let you keep that while flat-footed.) --The Krit (talk) 23:17, February 14, 2013 (UTC) ::* Ah, good idea. I did as you suggested and it looks like the monk is not flat footed when she is running in circles, though she is when she stops. I just repeated my test and ran her around for several minutes (5 levels of monk, no equipped weapons) and she never once attempted to deflect an arrow. (And, she did make an initiative roll at the beginning, FWIW.) I am now very curious about a feat that I previously thought I understood. - MrZork (talk) 01:01, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :::* If the flat-foot article is accurate, the other important case to test would be if you (are not flat-footed and) can deflect arrows while casting a spell/feat/special ability. --The Krit (talk) 01:54, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ::::* You can deflect arrows by casting a spell or ability by moving by mouse click, or the like. The initiative roll does not matter. However, the deflection only seems to occur for the first attack of the creature. Later attacks cannot be deflected. 02:17, February 15, 2013 (UTC) * To clarify. At first, I thought this is indeed the first attack roll made by the PC in the game. Thats why I used word session. Later, I found out that this feat stops working again when out of combat so I added the note when this session is erased - but I forgot to add a word "combat", but thats fixed now. My note indicates that the attack roll in needed, it has nothing do do with initiative. The flatfooted condition applies but as you have tested, it doesn't always work even when not flatfooted - character is NOT flatfooted when moving (flatfooted conditions are correct). But it seems that there is more of this. I tried to test it while casting and it also didn't worked, no matter if I initiated attack roll in the combat before or not. My furher testing indicates that this feat works only if the character "initiated his own combat round session". Which ends with next round - and, casting the spell is not possible in the same round the character initiated attack and happens in the next round when this session is erased, thus deflecting arrows is not possible when casting a spell. 09:37, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :* There are three cases for deflecting arrows. :# The creature firing the missiles makes its first attack. Here the target does need to have attacked previously but not necessarily in that combat. :# The target has conducted a physical attack less than one round previous to the ranged attacker's attack. :# The ranged attack provokes an attack of opportunity from the target. The ranged attack technically comes first, but still is subject to deflecting. :: In the first case, the deflector can be found doing almost anything. For example; after resolving one combat, I had my character rest, shift into Rakshasa shape, run close to an enemy and then cast a spell. The read-out was in the following order: the Rak is casting the spell, the enemy attacks the Rak (parried), the debug info for the attack is displayed, the initiative roll is made, the reflex save for deflecting is displayed, the Rak casts the spell. (I have a screen print of this, but I can't upload it without registration and I do not wish to distribute my email). ::The second case is the more typical, but often does not leave enough time for spell-casting to progress to the point that the ranged attack can be deflected in between the "casting" notification and the "cast" notification. One can run away after attacking and deflect while running. The attack of the deflector does not need to be melee, however he cannot deflect while any ranged weapon is equipped. Thus if he quickly unequips a the ranged weapon or fires the last throwing weapon, he can then deflect one ranged shot within the next 6 seconds. In general, deflect arrows is ill-suited for a long lasting ranged duel. :: 14:07, February 15, 2013 (UTC) ::* So, normally a character needs to be involved in combat to deflect arrows, and can deflect arrows the round after exiting combat. (For #3, I'm reading the order as ranged attack, attack of opportunity, deflect arrows attempt.) In addition, a character who is not flat-footed can deflect the first ranged attack of a particular attacker, provided the deflector was involved in combat earlier in the current game session. (Or maybe "server session"?) Is that right? ::: A new tidbit you mentioned -- you cannot deflect arrows if you have darts, shuriken, or throwing axes equipped, even if the other hand is empty? ::: By the way, when you register for an account, your email address is only visible to Wikia staff. That might be more distribution than you want, but it's not like everyone would get to see it. Even if someone were to send you an email through the wiki (an option you could turn off), that person would not get to see your address unless you replied. --The Krit (talk) 17:30, February 15, 2013 (UTC) :::* For the 3rd case the display is the ranged attack is parried, then the attack of opportunity, then the feedback that deflect arrows was successful. For the first case, it would be game session (I have not tested in a server environment). Darts, shurikens, and throwing axes have all been tested thoroughly in case 2 and for a few of them in case 1 and I have only been able to deflect after unequipping the weapon. I have now registered and have posted the image here. DrakeNight (talk) 00:40, February 16, 2013 (UTC) Note Revisions, 2013_03_05 In order to archive a few representative combat logs, the following documents have been made available for viewing: and . (If further details of the specific environment and conditions are of interest, I can post them within this section content upon request. Information was gathered from a purely vanilla v1.69 installation.) "Use of this feat requires at least one hand free. Using a two-handed weapon, such as a bow, will prevent this." "This feat does not work with a sling equipped." Both above statements are true as far as it goes but a subset of the overall dynamic in-game. Shield and torch are treated the same as far as unarmed attack is concerned. No range weapons at all can be used during the feat owner's combat action to realize the benefits of the feat, single-handed or otherwise. Creature weapons are also valid weapon types to qualify for melee-only combat prerequisite and the feat benefit is retained while polymorphed or when included in creature blueprints. For example, a form like drider won't deflect missiles due to the default spear equipped. To clarify it further: ''"This feat works only with a single-hand melee weapon (without offhand equipment), unarmed (with or without offhand equipment) or while polymorphed, if the polymorph form uses either a single-hand melee weapon or a creature weapon." has been substituted. "This feat doesn't work until character initiate attack roll for the first time for the given combat session. (This session is erased when character is out of combat.)" The actual dynamic that the above statement seeks to relate is that the feat only works while a combat action is in queue. The term "sessions" is misleading and ambiguous since the term pertains more to logging instances on a game server than a combat mode or queue. The deflecting dynamic can be toggled on and off according to the action queue and other feat restrictions. The sequence has no effect whatsoever whether the feat can be exercised. To be present a less convoluted translation of the in-game dynamic: "This feat works only while the feat owner is directly engaged in melee combat (i.e. icon displayed in the action queue)." has been substituted. The following additional limitations have also been revealed during extensive in-game testing: '' "Missile types that can be deflected are limited to: arrow, bolt, bullet, dart, shuriken and throwing axe."'' '' "Spells (like magic missile, flame arrow, quillfire) or spell-like abilities (like manticore spikes, seeker arrow, acid flask) that emulate a missile attack cannot be deflected."'' '' "The deflected missile is reported as a parried attack."'' '' "An automatic miss (dice roll of 1) of the opposed attacker will never be selected for a deflected missile attempt."'' '' "A deflected (parried) missile can only occur on the first attack of a random flurry of the opposed range attacker's round."'' '' "Multiple range attackers will randomly "share" the deflected missile attempts of the attacked feat owner."'' Important: The action of Deflect Arrows feat while in Parry mode has NOT been tested in this analysis. Any more efficient wording of the above observations are welcome as is additional confirmation of the limitations. Iconclast (talk) 15:57, March 5, 2013 (UTC) * This and the above discussion seem confusing due to the many points of disagreement. Anonymous 1.70 author has stated that an initial attack in a combat is necessary before one is able to deflect by means other than the attack action. DrakeNight has posted a screenshot showing a deflection on 1 (automatic miss) while casting a spell before the combat was initialized. Iconclast has only had findings in melee attacking. There are points of agreement here (such as Iconclast and DrakeNight saying that you cannot deflect with any ranged weapon equipped) but it seems to be too many conclusions are being made in opposition. WhiZard (talk) 20:05, March 5, 2013 (UTC) :* Looking through Iconclast's uploaded logs, I see no instances of an auto-miss being skipped for arrow deflection, and one instance of an auto-miss being deflected (row 44 of the "1v1" file). So I'm thinking DrakeNight's conclusion is the one to go with here. --The Krit (talk) 02:34, March 14, 2013 (UTC) ::* It appears automatic misses are regarded differently than normal misses. Deflect arrows does examine for a hit, but does not factor in auto-miss and auto-hit. WhiZard (talk) 23:32, July 22, 2014 (UTC) :* So it is not forgotten: a remaining inconsistency is Iconclast's claim that this feat only works in melee combat vs. DrakeNight's findings that this feat works for the round after disengaging from combat (melee or ranged). Plus the oddball case of deflecting an attacker's first attack sometimes. --The Krit (talk) 02:50, March 14, 2013 (UTC) * I found your drider note to be odd considering a drider (and the drider form) is a large creature, and thus would wield the spear with one hand. After confirming that a drider did not deflect arrows in a situation where he normally should be able, I then tested a halfling with a longsword. The halfling was able to deflect arrows even though he was two-handing a weapon. So the size of the weapon is checked without the creature size, effectively preventing deflection for large weapons, but not preventing deflection for two-handed wielding small races. WhiZard (talk) 20:00, March 7, 2013 (UTC) :* I'll update the note for this. --The Krit (talk) 02:08, March 14, 2013 (UTC) * As far as the ammunition types, would this be custom content? Very few custom content developers are introducing new base items as opposed to redefining the existing lines. The reason behind this is that new lines cannot be defined for ranged weapons so that they are able to fire (conduct a standard ranged attack). If this is not custom content, it would be better to combine it with the next note, stating "Only a standard ranged attack can be deflected. Abilities that mimic a ranged attack (like hail of arrows) cannot be deflected even if a ranged touch attack is performed." WhiZard (talk) 20:00, March 7, 2013 (UTC) :* I'm guessing that the list of ranged weapons was intended to include all the types Iconclast tested and was not generalized to "all ranged weapons" in an attempt to avoid possibly overstating the case (even though the list did encompass all standard ranged weapons). I've combined that list with the lists of things that cannot be deflected, and consolidated them into a more succinct description that I hope is adequate (but if there are in fact other cases to cover, then the current phrasing will need to be updated). --The Krit (talk) 02:41, March 22, 2013 (UTC) * I'm wondering about "Multiple range attackers will randomly "share" the deflected missile attempts of the attacked feat owner." I don't understand what is being shared. The character can deflect one incoming missile attack per round, not "per attacker per round". --The Krit (talk) 02:11, March 14, 2013 (UTC) * With regards to "A deflected missile can only occur on the first attack of a random flurry of the opposed range attacker's round." -- this is not what I see in the uploaded logs. It looks to me that the deflected attack is fairly consistently the first attack in the first (attacker's) flurry that starts after the deflector's round starts. (That is, if you move the marking of the start of a round from right after the last attack of a round to right before the first attack of a round.) --The Krit (talk) 02:43, March 14, 2013 (UTC) :* The logs all reflect ranged attacks whose attack roll is always high enough to hit (if it were not for the auto-miss on one). If you raise the AC or lower the AB, you will notice that deflect arrows can occur in the middle of a flurry where the first attack roll is not high enough to overcome the AC, but a later attack roll in the flurry is. WhiZard (talk) 16:03, July 23, 2014 (UTC) ::* Okay, but how does that apply to the comment this is in reply to? I was talking about "random flurry" not being accurate, and that still seems to be the case. --The Krit (talk) 15:52, August 16, 2014 (UTC) ::* I was responding to "...this is not what I see in the uploaded logs. It looks to me that the deflected attack is fairly consistently the first attack in the first (attacker's) flurry that starts after the deflector's round starts." While this conclusion is accurate to the logs, I was posting that different behavior could be seen if the logs represented more cases. WhiZard (talk) 16:18, August 16, 2014 (UTC) Meaning of "round" Did I leave out anything important when I changed the flurry discussion to a clarification of "round"? It was looking to me like the note was evolving into a discussion of how attack rolls are resolved, with the conclusion that the first hit in the deflector's round is deflected, minus auto-hits. (Well, first hit in the first flurry with a hit. Same thing, no?) Resolving attack rolls is off-topic, and another note already covers "first hit" and "minus auto-hit". That seemed to leave only "deflector's round" and the acknowledgement that attackers might see this as randome. --The Krit (talk) 16:13, August 16, 2014 (UTC) :Looks good, I just didn't want to remove "first attack in a flurry" altogether without leaving some explanation as to why this is unreliable. WhiZard (talk) 16:46, August 16, 2014 (UTC) Slings/Darts/Throwing Axes and Deflect Arrows Curious whether slings / darts / throwing axes been tested It states all ranged weapons cannot use deflect arrows however the above techinically has the offhand free to use a shield if needed. 06:43, January 25, 2020 (UTC) * The answer is on this talk page. According to the 07:10, 5 August 2008 comment by Genesisth (earlier on this talk page), slings have been tested. The 00:40, February 16, 2013 comment by DrakeNight (end of the Confusing note section) indicates that darts, shurikens, and throwing axes have been tested.The 15:57, March 5, 2013 comment by Iconclast (Note Revisions.2C 2013 03 05) says that all ranged weapons have been tested. --The Krit (talk) 18:59, January 25, 2020 (UTC)